This post is part of a series that began here.
This all started a week ago Sunday you know. I subbed in Little Bit's Bible class and boy did that get my mind racing. It has been enough years since I taught Bible classes on a regular basis that it was a really eye opening experience for me.
That got me to thinking about how all of it has changed since our country was founded. Sunday schools were started to educate the poor children and keep them off the streets on their only day off. Then public schools took over the task of academic training so Sunday schools focused instead on religious training. Then, flash forward many years here, the schools removed religion from the picture all together. Now I feel that the church is removing academics from the equation as well.
Where does this lead us?
Hopefully, it leads us to the conclusion that we, the parents, are responsible for our children. Even though the church, and specifically the tradition my family is from, has done a great job in the past of teaching God's word to children, we cannot rely on that. As was mentioned in the comments on the last post, we've spent too long thinking the church is going to do for our children what it did for us. That ship has sailed. That pendulum has swung. Those days are over. YOU might attend a church that does a stellar job of Bible instruction. I am so glad if you do. However, it does not remove your responsibility. In fact, maybe it's a good thing that many children aren't learning very much in Bible class anymore. Perhaps it will open more parents' eyes to the fact that they need to be about the business of instructing their children.
For several years now I have understood this. I began to understand that the Bible tells parents to train their children. Not school teachers. Not ministry volunteers. Parents. That is part of what led us to homeschooling. I did not always understand this. And even though I understood it--I still hadn't accepted it. My husband told me over and over, "We have to teach them here at home. Anything they get in Bible class is icing on the cake." I agreed. But I haven't really wrapped my mind around it until now.
I guess you could say my eyes have been opened and I can accept as fact that my children will not learn what I want them to learn in any children's ministry. No matter how awesome it is. Will they get something out of it? Of course! But not what I have had in mind all this time.
And guess what? They aren't really meant to. They are meant to learn here at home from me and their dad. This is why there are home churches and family integrated churches by the way. Once you get this--it changes your life. But what about those of us who do not home church or go to a family integrated church? What about all the Christian parents who weekly send their little charges down the colorful hallway to what was formerly known as Sunday school?
What are we going to do about it?
I'd like to hear from you before I go on...
Brenda,I have no idea!!!!!!!!!but I am praying because something has got to change.I am pulling my children out of Kidz zone aka childrens church and youth group.They are learning nothing of value.My daughter always has attitude after spending time in these classes and my son often says someone has made fun of him.The teachers are frazzled and grouchy not that I nessesarly blame them .It would be hard to have 150 k5 thru 5th graders in your care for that amount of time.
ReplyDeleteI am seriously praying and seeking Gods will in the area of where we should worship, how we should worship, and if we should relocate, in order to be closer to people who share my convictions.If that is what this discontentment is.
LucyT
I'm loving this series, just like I knew I would. For once, I'm actually going to defend my church (and as you know, I have NO loyalty to a building, I just don't). But the "children's ministry" is the whole reason we went on a year long church search and quit going for awhile. I hated the whole "children's areas" where they "housed" the kids while the parents could go to church "uninterrupted". (Do you hear me fuming, because I am) If I heard one more time, "you know, you can leave the baby in the nursery, we have a really great nursery." I might just come undone. And there was that one church that informed me that I couldn't look in on my 3 year old because it "caused trouble" and they would be sure to let me know if he needed anything. There was that other time we showed up for Awana and they wooed my kids and at the end they handed me a vest, a book, and a bill for $35 PER KID. No thank you, I said. "If you need a scholarship we'd love to help you, we really don't want to see you not come due to money." I can teach my kids memory verses and sing songs with them thankyouverymuch. Okay, I'll take a breath now. And tell you the good parts. We found a church where they didn't just "keep the kids" where they didn't send us home with a sheet of stickers and a reprimand that our sons couldn't sit still. The new church was colorful; appealing. But my 3 year old comes home telling me about David and Jonathon. My girl tells me details I had forgotten. And my 3rd grader? Tells me about missionaries, about the 10 40 window, and about how he adds missionary to his list of "when I grow up..." Good stuff. Supplemental to us stuff, but good stuff. Rare. I know, I unfortunately have visited a lot. Okay, I'll step down from the soap box. I can't talk church. I come undone. :)
ReplyDeleteSuzanne,It sounds like we might have been visiting the same churches.
ReplyDeleteI am glad to hear I am not the only one who has come undone over church talk.I feel like I have been on a year long rant.
LucyT
GREAT post, Brenda! This whole series has been excellent. You are right on the money.
ReplyDeleteWell, you don't have to go to a family integrated church in order to have your family in worship. Take them into church with you regardless of what everyone else does. We have done that before. I am against it, but my husband said that in our new church, our little boys are going to nursery. Nursery is all our church has, and once you turn 3, that's it, you're in church with your parents whether you like it or not. So ours is mostly family integrated, and they will NEVER get on you if you choose not to utilize the nursery for kids under 3. It's there if you want it, and unfortunately my husband chose to use it, so I happily drop my kids off there every Sunday morning. Our oldest is about the leave the nursery and so we've taken him into church with us a few times now to "wean" him out and he does very well. He misses nursery though.
ReplyDeleteOur Sunday School is before church, and the kids do learn a lot. But I agree that it is the parent's job to make sure their kids are learning what they need to know. I have fond memories of real Sunday School though and I hope that my kids can have the same. The minute our Sunday School turns into "Kidz Zone" or "King's Kids" or anything like that, our kids are out. But I can't imagine our pastor letting that happen. He's an old fashioned guy with old fashioned beliefs.
Mrs. W-I don't have a problem with nursery. We kept our girls with us as long as we could and then there is a time and place for nursery. Then, when they are older we keep them longer and longer in service, "training" them as you said. It's such a small portion of their life. I know you CAN train them to sit in church, but for us it came when they were 2-3. Meaning, we started when they were 2 and it took until they were 3! ha! :)
ReplyDeleteOh, and I forgot to say this.....sometimes you can't keep your children in worship b/c their Bible class time runs in the middle of worship. WHat I mean is, at a lot of churches, there isn't a "before" or "after" time for Bible class but its' all just kind of "during." At our old church, there was the Bible class hour, then "second hour" which we pulled our kids out of to attend worship. They were about the only kids in the service too. But I was thankful for that breaking point (they served snack right then) where I could easily collect my children before the second hour fun began. They didn't know they were missing anything.
ReplyDeleteI do wonder this....what is it like to be a kid who has NEVER sat in worship growing up and then suddenly in 6th grade or whenever, you find yourself sitting there week after week? What must that be like? I guess we'll know in a few years as surely there are some kids growing up like that.
I do wonder this....what is it like to be a kid who has NEVER sat in worship growing up and then suddenly in 6th grade or whenever, you find yourself sitting there week after week? What must that be like?
ReplyDeleteWell you don't have to wait a few years because I can give you some idea right now. My older kids on their own decided that youth church was shallow with no substantive Bible teaching, and stopped going. This was about 2 years ago. They were 13,13,14. They started sitting in with us and have been in the corporate worship service ever since. This, after spending their whole lives moving through the children's church system.
At first, I think they had a hard time following the messages because the preaching at our church is not seeker senstitive. The church is the place where the saints gather for encouragement and to be equipped, so the teaching doesn't presuppose that the congregation knows nothing about the Bible. Rather, it's just the opposite. So they had a little trouble at first, but they have never expressed any desire to return to youth church.
The good thing about that was that it encouraged them to read their Bibles, and ask questions, which facilitated some great conversations and Bible studying at home. We still don't do this as much as we should, but much more than we used to.
Our little ones (2 and almost 4) do not go to nursey and will not go to "Bible class", which at our church runs alongside the corporate worship, not before or after.
I am in the market right now for some good resources to teach them the Bible at home, as I have grown a wee bit wary of the typical children's Bible.
Suggestions are welcomed.
That's suprising to me that you do not have seeker sensitive sermons, and yet your Bible class runs alongside the worship service. Seems an odd mix in the same church.
ReplyDeleteInteresting. I'm glad your daughters decided that on their own.
My 12 year old grew up going to first sunday school and junior church(kidsz zone).You age out of kidz zone around 12.while he thinks he is to old for junior church he does not want to attend church either because it is dull.He is baptized and tries to read his bible at home daily.I believehe loves God. but he has been use to singing and dancing and playing games during that church time.This is another reason why I am pulling my 6 and7 year old out of kidz zone.
ReplyDeleteAs for my 19 month old she will not attend any of it except for church if we can just train her to get through prayer time and communion with out screaming.
We have a church nursery but once thay turn two that MUST go to class.No parents allowed.My preacher also likes to remind us from the pulpit that it is sinful to allow our children to disrupt someone elses worship.It is very hard to bring a little one to church when you hear that.I wonder how many people have given up on attending do to that attitude.
LucyT
I will give props to our church for this. Every week they say there is a nursery,but if your kiddos make noise--no big deal. But everyone sends their kids.
ReplyDeleteAnd LucyT....do you suppose 1st century Christians had childcare? Bet some kids made noise.Sheesh.
ReplyDeleteI also will add that my oldest child grew up in sunday school and attending church with me before we had kidz zone before the whole mega church purpose driven thing.He loves church can't get enough of it drives his dad a little crazy because my husband would like to skip night church .He goes to work at 9 on sunday nights.My oldest keeps us all going.What a blessing that boy is!
ReplyDeleteLucyT
Brenda,I had hoped my preachers attitude would change with kids of his own.NOPE his wife hires a baby sitter on sundays to keep her two youngest kids at home.They have three .She doesn't put them in classes until they are public school age and exposed to all those germs.Shake head and shrug, or laugh.
ReplyDeleteBrenda, just a week or two ago (father's day) my in-laws came to our church for the night service since they had had dinner on the grounds and don't have an evening service on the days they have dinner on the grounds. The kids (11 and 8) actually complained about having to sit in church that long, because they are NEVER in church at their church. They are in "Children's Church" on Sunday Mornings, and then "Master's Club" on Sunday nights, and then "Wednesday Warriors" on Wednesday nights. I think it is utterly ridiculous that an 8 and 11 year old didn't think it possible to sit through a WHOLE hour and a half maybe two hour church service once in a while.
ReplyDeleteIf you leave them that long and then pull them out, all you hear is fussing and whining like I heard that night. Kids should NOT be that old before they see their parents worshipping, and going to worship with their parents. We are supposed to be examples to our children.
The kids also hated that at our church, we finish when we are done, it's not strictly and hour to the second like their church. Their church has a lot of "tradition" and stuff and our church is more spirit lead, where if pastor thinks the Lord is leading him to do something that's not always done, we'll do it anyway.
Ladies, I'm assuming that your husbands are happy where you go to church. We just recently left a church we had been attending partly because their attitudes about children. What I'm getting at is, if the church you are in hates kids so much that they won't let them in the services, or they say rude things about children, it's time to find another church.
What I'm hearing from you ladies...is that many of you think your children's ministry is just not worth it. you dont' think they get anything out of it? I mean, I've come to the conclusion that we are their primary teachers...but isn't there any good to come of going to the children's program? Supplementally speaking?
ReplyDeleteBrenda, I believe Sunday School at a separate time to the worship service, if the kids are actually learning something, is great.
ReplyDeleteMy belief is that children's programs, no matter how good they claim to be, are no good if they take kids away from being in the church service with their families.
Oh Brenda, don't forget about the SOCIALIZATION they get at these classes. Isn't that what all us homeschoolers need? That's enough for us to send them, isn't it? [end sarcasm]
ReplyDeleteMy girls haven't been exposed to a kid's class for about three years, so I don't know what to expect when we get home. I'm thinking on Wednesdays they'll just sit in church with us. They're used to it. Plus, we'll be traveling a lot, so I'm sure we'll get a lot of different experiences! :0)
Yes, Brenda, our church often feels like several churches in one. Our church was a baptist church for 50 years before going non-denominational, and has had the same pastor for the last 30 years. Seeker-sensitvity could never be a good fit there.
ReplyDeleteBut at the same time, the children's ministry is very much in line with more modern churches.
I'd never thought much about the dichotomy before, hmmm...
Wow, I'm so glad I'm not the only one extremely dissatisfied with the Christian education options available. I'm not Protestant, I'm Orthodox, and so whenever I'm sighing because when my son is Sunday School age (we have no nursery), Sunday School will probably be either non-existent or during church, I always think, "You know, the evangelical churches probably do it right..." so it's kind of a relief to hear so many have the same problem. I prefer non-existent (our current state) to during church, because I don't know how people expect little kids to magically become regularly attending parishioners in the sanctuary as adults, when they spend the first 18 years of their life outside of it (Sunday School goes through high school). Schooling at home is really best, and being IN church as a family for services. I had never heard of "family integrated" churches, because when I was growing up, Sunday School was after church, and so the term "family-integrated" was confusing - family-integrated, as opposed to... what?
ReplyDeleteCaeseria,,
ReplyDeleteFamily integrated as opposed to having al the family member plit off into different areas of the church as soon you enter the door:
Babies in nursery, elemetary aged kids in a separate place, teens in a service geared to them, and the parents in the main sanctuary.
This is a pretty common model in evangelical circles. The family doesn't see each other again until its time to laod back up in the car and go home.
Caeseria, family-integrated as oppposed to splitting everyone up by ages. That splitting the family up, some say, came about as a result of public schooling. That's why on many Sunday school doors you used to see "1st-2nd grade",etc. This is a problem for some who homeschool and have no "grade" for their children!
ReplyDeleteHere is a great explanation of family integrated churches:
http://www.gracefamilybaptist.net/GFBC2/What_is_an_FIC.html
oops---didn't see Terry had already answered!
ReplyDeleteI pretty much agree with all said. We definitly DO not do childrens church, our kids sit with us thru service- even if people think we are weird! We have sunday school between the two services, we have not attended this yet... we will see. We have sunday night church and the kids have a bible study, it is great and Dave adn I are in a smaller more intimate bible study. I like them both very much. Wed night the kids do have a class I am unsure about it still. They have sat with us in the wed night bible study and they have gone to the class--- still making my mind up on which we will continue.
ReplyDeleteThis is a hard issue. I do not like Childrens church- kings kids, Rocking Kids whatever ya want to call them!!!! I am not a fan of youth group! Cannot see my kids being involved but I wont say never I guess.. but most likely never? :) I would love smaller intimate group meetings at our house as the kids get older!
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ReplyDeleteI wish a lot of people would try small country churches. This is the kind we have always pastored. Yes, they have Sunday School, but usually no nursery or children's church, so they end up being family integrated. Usually smaller churches are happy to have anybody show up, and in my experience, never force parents to leave their children anywhere if they don't want to. Usually larger churches are the ones with all the programs and seem to force parents to use nursery/children's church facilities.
ReplyDeleteHowever, few people want to come to our little country family churches. Why? No programs for the children. Most parents seem to WANT this stuff, which is why there is such a market for it.
When my children were little, I didn't have anything against nursery, but my strong-willed older son refused to stay -- he'd cry until he threw up and they'd HAVE to come get me, even though they vowed they would never do that!
So, then, I was like, "Ok, you don't have to go to the nursery, but now you have to sit in church and behave." Which he did. And his brother, who loved the nursery, ended up staying with us after a while, too. Both learned to sit in church.
When they were about seven years old, my husband made them take notes of the sermon. They both did a very good job at that; children as young as that are capable of doing that.
I prefer not to have children's church, myself. Children can catch on to a sermon at a young age, as I said.
Lots of this stuff is also to get young families to come to church. The nursery is a lure. And, then again, many young families won't come to your church unless you provide a nursery. We have never had the means to be able to do that at our churches, because most of the people are elderly, so we don't have many young people. Sad. Mary R.
Mary, I wish I lived in the country! I'd go to a simple little country church in 2 seconds! ;)
ReplyDeleteMary,I remember when my church was a small country church one little old white 1500 square foot painted wood building with a gravel parking lot.The same family names on the attendance roll as layed to rest in the old grave yard out back.A good old home town boy as a preacher a man who loved God and family and when the babies would cry and the teens setting at the back of the church would grow a little rowdy and tip over the pew feet high in the air he would just smile and say a prayer of thankfullness because" God knows a loud church is a growiing church"AND WE GREW. People loved this Godly family man with his happy wife and four wild little children.People could see Jesus in him.Soon the pews where filled all the aisles and the hallway as well.we began a second morning service.His wife hand baked and personaly delivard cookies to each visitor.Again the pews where filled the aisles and the hallway as well.We built a bigger better church of brick and stone with stain glass windows a real steaple and concrete parking lot OH,and of course a light up billboard.We have showers and offices and six large bathrooms 20 classrooms,a hugh family life center.You know for cookies and milk between 1st sevice and sunday school.Yes we still have two morning sevices.One for the "old people" who like hymns and one for everyone else.The sanctuary is hugh and comes with a drum stage, light show, room for three guitar players, a baby grand ,and several jean clad girl singers.
ReplyDeleteOur hometown boy preacher unfortunately never preached a day in this new church.He didn't believe in all the new ministries that would seperate the families and he didn't believe in the dress down to reel them in idea.He just believed in being real.So now we have sevice projects aimed at building the church,or if we where honest aimed and refilling the pews,Pews that once seemed to fill its self.
I forgot to sign my name to the above comment sorry.LucyT
ReplyDeleteWow, Lucy T.! That is really something!!! I'm glad for a church that grows, but sad to see such a split -- but I hear about things like that all the time -- worship wars and the like. Churches like the one you describe, where the older people go to one service and the younger people with children to another -- really two separate churches. Mary R.
ReplyDeleteIt is two seprate churches and there just isn't any respect shown for the older people in our church.I feel caught in the middle emotinaly speaking because my uncle who raised me is the assosiat minister and I really love the older people that are left in our church but my children are 14,12,7,6.and19mo so I am expected to come on board with all the youth ministries.Its hard being a P.K..
ReplyDeleteI should say that my uncle is still a minister at this church because he does the hymn thing, and senior saints, visits the sick,mows lawns for widows, the sort of stuff that none of the other church leaders want to make time for.
LucyT